MArcomage

I think that keyword itself is fine, but there is some cards that making Undead deck really OP.

1. Crypt sentry.
There was a thread about it, but I'll repeat my thoughts about it from that thread. For 6b/4r you can get up to 8 stock, and 2b/1r if played on token (not so important, of course, but...) It has the same effect as Holy Fairy, Vampire countess and Unliving Titan's left arm but first two are uncommons and Titan's left arm costs 7b so Unliving deck don't get much from that 8 gems and 8 recruits.

2. Vampire countess.
This card is at par with Fairy, but it can also give +1 Magic for 3g. Okay, Fairy is better because of Swift, but Holy deck doesn't have such attack potential that Undead has.

3. Crypt.
Non-common Undead and 10g/10r in like 75% cases for 15b that Undead deck doesn't use. Enough said.

4. Necromancer.
Let's see: a rare that summons another rare with keyword. There is 3 cards with similar effect: Stonehenge, Centaur trainer and Dragon nest. All that cards give +2 to generators and summon another rares. Centaur trainer also has Beast keyword, but without it he would be useless in Beast deck that is often suffers from lack of resources. Mages don't have so much difficulties to play Stonehenge, but unlike Centaur trainer it has no keyword and can't be summoned by specific way. Same with
What Necromancer does? Attacks for 20 damage, summons a rare Undead and gives summoned card cost to you so it's almost free all the time (and when you play Necromancer on token - just free, without "almost").

No, I won't complain about Undead host in this thread, because... well, I still hate this card. It's easy to play despite its 35g/35r cost and can be in your hand from start, so I'd still like to see him more weak and more cheap. But it's a REAL problem if played before turn 20. If you have more time to react - it still hurts, but you can survive. And if cards I mentioned before will be nerfed, I think that Undead host will be fine.

Other Undead cards are fine, I guess. The problem is in combination of resource gain and heavy attack, and I think it needs to be solved.
For Crypt sentry: make its cost 4/4/4 and limit its stock gain to 6, or make it Uncommon.
For Vampire countess: remove +Magic.
For Crypt... I don't know what to do with it. Rework?
For Necromancer: raise its cost to 23/18 or raise attack and remove cost returning.
Any thoughts about it? And please, don't say that Holy deck is killing Undead with no chance - I know that.

I see Vampire countess as a necessary part of Undead. Without it, it's very difficult to use the keyword effectively since most cards are prohibitively expensive.

This is pretty much true of the keyword as a whole, however. It's comprised almost entirely of cards that are very good when you have a hand full of the keyword, but most are absolutely terrible by themselves. You have to go all in if you're using Undead, all or nothing. Tweak the better cards too much and you have to either improve the rest or accept that Undead is no longer worth playing.

This isn't to say that we shouldn't touch individual cards, but you have to consider the overall effect. Lessening one might require boosting five others to compensate.

I agree to most of the points NG said.

Crypt sentry must become more expensive... and less bricks-orientated. I like, that it "uses" the full hand. So it is more fruitful, to "collect" the undead... or as opponent "kill" them with holy or fire. Maybe also a Stock + undead/2 would help out... cost then 5b,2r.

The countess is okay for me... you really only get the magic+ if you have (almost) a full hand. Maybe "cripple" her by giving magic+ only with full undead hand.

Crypt could be crippled (bad pun), by giving max 5 of each ressource... that way it would be "okay". (imo)

Necromancer: Yeah... maybe if you don't give no cost of the card, it would be more fair... as undead rares can be summoned easily via necromancy :-/

Undead host is "freaking" expansive"... with a crippled Sentry, it would be fine, I think...

BUT:
IMO the killer is DEATH WAVE:
7 gems doing "always" 20 damage... for a common!! So why waiting for the vampire with its nasty side-effects, when inflicting damage is commonly so easy?!

I had so many games recieving 2-3 death waves in a row (or playing them... the more pleasant way)... thats 60 damage for 21 gems... so why summoning dragons??

Finally concerning holy decks:
Without their soldier-synergy, holy decks wouldn't stand undead decks normally (that's my opinion)... I challenge every holy-deck without soldiers with my undead, and I think, I will have very good chances, although my undead deck is one of the less powerful undead decks, played here...



My little "undead-story"... for those who are interested:

When I began playing here, the third deck I created was an undead deck... It was built very fast, as there are many undead-keyword-cards... and it stroke very effective. Compared to the other two decks I already had, no "fine-tuning" was needed... it had the best win-loss ratio... this made me a bit sad and I took a rare out of it, so it was not playable anymore. Today, as I see, that this game is not perfectly balanced (how should it!) I rearranged the undeads... but still feel the pain of my opponents, when they have no holy in deck...

btw. I think similar about holy-soldiers. The synergy-effects of some of this cards are too strong... but that's a different story

Death wave used to harm both players, but having up to 5 Undead in hand would reduce the damage received by 4 per. This meant that you had to have enough Undead in hand to defend yourself and if your opponent had any you wouldn't be dealing the full damage to him. I'm still unsure why that was changed, though I suspect it was solely because the effect was difficult to summarize in brief on the card.

Anyway, I agree that it's too easy to put to optimal use.

Although I love Undead decks I'll agree that Crypt Sentry has made them quite OP.

Crypt, Countess and Necromancer existed before and weren't bad cards. With the addition of Crypt Sentry and Deathwood Necromancer though, Undead decks can be quite powerful. I'd suggest reducing the effect of Crypt Sentry by capping it and reducing its cost (since it will be capped) and making Crypt give less resource gain.

Necromancer and Vampire Countess are just fine in my opinion. Necromancer is also a rare that is quite costly to play for an Undead deck (think not in terms of total resource cost but as to WHEN you can play it). I wouldn't mind a cost increase to it though, but removing the resource gain would render its concept useless, since a Necromancer animates already dead bodies, thus he/she does not consume any resources of his own. Gameplay-wise, removing the resource gain would render it as a bad rare, since I can have the same effect for a lot less using cards like Necromancy Amplifier and Necromancy

http://arcomage.netvor.sk/?location=Cards_details&card=350

This one is way too heavy in combos

Yep, cut all Undead cards and no one will play this deck cause sucks. I remember times when Holy deck massacres Undeads with Puryfying ashes. Now Holy generates 100 tokens in 2 moves when good compiled. Undeads are good in groups only. But if someone doesn't like to play Holy there are other tricks to find a way for annoying deck than to shout: CUT, CUT , CUT. If someone find a way to win with destruction deck people scream : Cut plague ! or Game is boring cause too long !!! How about improvements than cuts, and maybe first better improve own mind and search for better solutions. This thoughts aren't directed to any person - I probably have difficult character :)

Currently - Undead keyword has more cards than anything else. Add Undead support to that as well. It's very easy to upkeep 6-7 undeads in hand to wreck havoc. Second comes Holy, And I think Unliving after that.
If not nerfing undead deck, we just need more anti-undead cards.
Like Elementalist for killing Unliving\Titan deck.
We need some Inquisition, which would do the same.

Necropost. Now about another thing.
Nerfs to Undead deck did what was necessary, and now it's time to give some love to this deck. Now it's kinda too dependent on proper use of Crypt and resource cards.
I don't ask to revert nerfs, I like Undead cardset where it is now, but I'd like to see some changes in keyword.
My suggestion:
Return a part of the total cost of the played card depending of how many resource types card costs (1 - 2/3, 2 - 1/2, 3 - 1/3).
For example, Lich played on token would return 3/3/3 resources, while Koschei resource returning would be 12R. It could make Undead more sustainable which is what Undead deck needs right now in my opinion.
Any thoughts about it?

I think it's a good idea, but we need some proper wording. Or maybe just change it to returns 2/3 of highest resource of card cost?

It's possible, but only if player's lowest resource would be returned, or cards like Undead host would become a headache.
But of course, I'd prefer to see my suggestion implemented, not only because of Undead, but also because it would lead to discussion about another cost-returning keyword: Soldier. :)