MArcomage

Does anyone else think that this card is just too much? It's been used a number of times against me so far and the effect is just ridiculously good. +40 wall -40 enemy wall stock +8 (which means that the card is virtually free) on average... But the worst part is that it can easily be summoned as a nature rare and played 2 or 3 times in a match which does up to 120 wall damage and +120 wall for no cost at all. I'd suggest making it more expensive or reducing the effects. Does anyone else agree with me on that?

I agree, there's a lot of rare Natures, that were made to strengthen the keyword when Nature's strength was demoted so horribly, but now they are just ridiculously strong. Cards like Apocalyptic Rain and Tornado
along with Corrupted Woods are just too cheap, too effective and too easy to summon. I'd suggest removing Nature from them (perhaps make them Destruction only) or increase their cost.

Apocalyptic Rain alone, by standard conditions and at a game going for 20 turns, it can averagely cause 60-70 damage (magic =3, Bricks = 40), but usually Nature decks, don't use a lot of bricks (so this might be higher) and also players target in increasing their facilities (so magic can be higher as well as bricks). I believe it should attack based on opponent's bricks and magic, if it's gonna cost only 34 gems.

Also Tornado is just too strong. 0 stock, with no conditions from an easily summoned rare with just 30 gems. I believe there should at least be a condition to it, or reduce the amount of stock it reduces (i.e. enemy stock = 1/4 current enemy stock) or reduce its cost.

Old Nature was perfectly balanced. I believe we should go back to having those 4 rare Nature cards only, or if we want to make more Nature cards, then all rare Nature cards have to be dumpened a little, i.e. easily summoned weak-moderate cards. Now we have easily summoned extremely effective cards.

I haven't really seen Corrupted woods in action much, so I can't comment. I agree 100% about Apocalyptic Rain though. When it was shown in the card preview a while back, I said it was hugely overpowered, and I still think that's the case.

I don't think that removing some rare Nature cards will help, I think it will do the opposite. Right now, there are several rare Nature cards that are situational. Maybe we should adjust the Nature keyword effect. The problem is the "rare Nature streak". I have an idea for solution "summon rare cards only if there are no rare cards on hand including played card".

And turn Nature keyword in a crap again?
I agree that Corrupted woods are too effective. But Nature overall ISN'T. I'm saying it because I played ~250 games with Nature deck after update.
1. Nature has no enemy hand control except resource destroying. It NEEDS that stupid Tornado all the time or Undead, Barbarian and other attack decks will rip Nature apart.
2. The only one Nature/Far sight costs 25 recruits and is useful only when enemy has a wall.
3. Nature hasn't any tower+ cards. But with Corrupted woods it has very decent wall increasing... but if you have an opponent with a rush deck, most likely you'll be dead. Because it's only three cards.
4. Nature has many effective wall- cards, but has NO ATTACK except rare oneshots. Forest spirit is the only one uncommon that has a decent attack. Yes, Apocalyptic rain along with Deathwood shaman and a couple of magic+ cards is too effective. Much more effective that All-elemental attack.
5. Both Nature summoners can summon unreliable Restoration or Beast cards.
6. Rare streak? How about that: All-elemental attack, All-elemental attack, Volcano, All-elemental attack, Volcano? And don't forget that you need resources to get rare cards, and Nature uncommons aren't too cheap.

Nature is all about rare summoning. Change or remove this effect - and Nature will be useless.
About Apocalyptic rain. It's the only one card in game that has no attack limit. You can gather, say, 200 bricks and 20 magic and then use this card for 2000 attack. Maybe limit its attack somehow? Like that:
Attack: #Bricks * #Magic / 2 (max. 100)
Bricks: - (#Attack / (#Magic / 2))
So it will not oneshot your enemy with your 200 bricks and 20 magic, it will just spend 10 bricks and 34 gems for 100 attack.
And FINALLY about Corrupted woods. Remove wall- part and change multiplier to 4, but add +1 stock gain. That's it.

The thing about those rares is that most of them cost gems only and that's not a problem in nature decks mostly because of lake fairy. So especially in long mode you just know that the opponent at some point WILL play tornado, volcano, apocalyptic rain or earthquake. I agree that Nature decks are weak against rush decks just as undead decks are weak against holy decks but in long mode they are just unstoppable.

Also you don't need other attack cards as long as you can easily summon and gather the resources to play your rare oneshots

If you get 3 all-elemental attacks in a row with nature deck then you're just unlucky, you discard them with lake fairy and try again but what happens when you get 3 corrupted woods?

Funny, I read this thread from the beginning and I was really curious when NG_Beholder add his post, because he now plays only Nature deck with the long mode and he's always the first person who shouts when something is "overpowered" (it means someone beat him) and also he's always very enraged when the situation is reversed and his deck is touched ;) Well, why I wrote it - of course, nature keyword IS overpowered, especially in the long mode - and it's quite good demonstrable on his statistics, I looked on his last 80 games (about 10 days) they're all in the long mode and it was I think 54:26 (win/lose), so more than 2:1 (his total statistics 844:639, so about 1,32:1), and I'm pretty sure that the reason isn't any prodigious increasing of his skill ;)

Maybe the rush deck has an advantage even in the long mode, but there it hasn't chance against the most of other decks, so it's quite irelevant...

So I agree with both sol's posts, also with main of Lord Ornlu's post and also with dindon notice about Apolayptic rain (and it's true not only for Nature decks, I agree Apocalyptic rain is a little much strong separately).

Ι agree with sol here. Nature can raise the stock effectively and you can play rares pretty easily. A few common +gems/+recruits cards in hand plus a couple Legends and Mages can help you have no problem with resources/facilities. Also you have plenty of cards that reduce enemy stock, you don't depend on Tornado. You've got Blizzard, Flood, Chain Lightning and Volcano and they reduce stock at a good rate for their cost. Tornado is more effective than any Brigand or Destruction card, which are focused on stock reduction. Also Tornado is easily summoned. I wouldn't mind it if it was any other kind of rare, but because it's a Nature rare, well you can just summon it like that. Thoughts?

"Nature cards mostly focus on -wall": That's not entirely true. Most nature cards that attack wall also deal additional damage aside from wall (i.e. Necroent, Treant etc.) and besides most decks that you will encounter focus more on building wall than tower. If you play Ent (-40 wall) against someone twice, then they are literally at your mercy.

"Nature decks don't build your tower": You can sacrifice a few commons to add some defensive cards, since Nature is effective on long games. And besides, Barbarians, Brigands, Destruction, Undead (with the exception of Eternal Guardian), Mage (with the exception of playing Ice Queen), Legend and some other keywords don't focus on building tower or don't have cards that build tower. The only keywords that do so are Holy/Soldier, Far Sight, Aqua, Titan and Unliving. Your argument is not valid.

No, not allowing the summoning of other rares when you already have one won't really solve the problem. I believe Nature should just go back to having the 4 Nature cards it used to have before and keep the mechanics of the keyword as before. Apocalyptic Rain and Tornado can be capped and turned into Destruction rares (Destruction needs a few rares either way) and Elemental Attack can be turned into Alliance or stay in the keyword, I don't mind it. Corrupted Woods should just go into being Undead or cap it and keep it as Nature. Nature depends on rares but before, when we only had Ancient Sage, Volcano, Earthquake and even Forest Dragon, those rares were easily summoned but they were average rares with the advantage of being easily summoned but the disadvantage of being heavily dependent on other factors, on being relatively moderate strength, and of having the chance of summoning Earthquake, a crappy card that only served when you had high wall/tower and the enemy was close to losing. Now we have easily summoned rares, where half of them are the old Nature cards (average) and half of them are extremely powerful rares. You have 50% chance of getting a killer card, and keep getting that each time you play a rare and a different nature card after that.

May I also add, that NG was the one that demanded the previous nerfing of Nature, when Nature turned crap, by saying it's overpowered, but now that he can easily win with an overpowered deck he defends it? Isn't this a little biased? (sorry if I sound offensive, I don't mean to and I apologize beforehand, I'm just asking him to explain why he thinks Nature is not overpowered anymore)

I don't know if there's gonna be a change in Nature but I hope it wouldn't destroy it again as it happened in the past.

Maybe triggering Nature keyword could also impose some negative effect (-Tower or -Wall) on yourself? I mean Nature is an uncontrollable kind of force, right? :)

For Corrupted Woods I guess it could live without the stock gain.


EDIT: Nature could also be countered by implementing some counter cards like this one

We could add stock reduction equal to half the cost of the summoned rare nature card.

Stock reduction seems like a good idea, but I still think it wouldn't be that countering to the Nature power.

Volcano, Earthquake, Apocalyptic Rain and Tornado get something like -15 gems, which is easily overcome by playing Lake Fairy for three turns.

Corrupted Woods, All-Elemental Attack get a little below 10 stock reduction, which is again overcome by waiting a couple turns.

Forest Dragon gets -18 recruits, which is the only one not easily countered, unless you have a couple +recruits cards in hand.

All of these effects are countered by triggering Restoration once.

The only upside of this nerfing would be that you give a couple of turns to your opponent to overcome it, but again, usually Nature is played using +resource/facilities cards. It's not uncommon to see 100 resources in opponent's stock after 10 turns and reducing stock wouldn't affect the enemy too much. They could still play rare natures straight away with the addition of a couple restoration cards or a couple +stock cards.

I'd suggest making a poll for possible nerfings of Nature, with multiple choice voting system (allow people to choose more than one nerfs imo, but not cast more than one vote for a specific choice) and the majority gets its way with Nature, since it's always so broadly discussed and almost no one seems to be satisfied with the changes made to it.

dimitris wrote:
EDIT: Nature could also be countered by implementing some counter cards like this one

Are you sure? ;) I think it will be only another powerfull Nature rare :)

Your opponent can use it as counter of your nature cards almost only if he also play Nature ;)

A bit off topic. but it looks like links are broken by use of the Quote feature again. This was an issue before but fixed, wasn't it? Maybe caused by the implementation of "Link?"

Also, I wanted to note that adding stock reduction to the Nature summoning effect would be a real kick in the pants to anyone who triggers it accidentally. It happens.

The quotes aren't broken. This strange behavior is caused by some browser specific setting on the client side. That was the conclusion is the previous case.

Okay. First of all, I'm defending Nature keyword, not cards. My point is: if Nature is really too strong - problem is not in keyword. It is in cards like Lake fairy, Deathwood necromancer and Deathwood Shaman. If you want - I can write a post about all Nature cards and what can be done with them to buff/nerf/change/etc.

I won't answer to vault anymore because if I do it I'll get a limited access to forum like LMTR14, and I don't want it. I just remind to all of you that he played tower- deck almost all the time before long mode was introduced and when I said that it's OP he did the same thing he is blaming me now. The only difference is that I am not crapping emoticons in every forum message.

To sol:
If you pulled 3 Corrupted woods in a row - you are extremely lucky, I guess. 150 wall to you and -150 wall to enemy for free.

To Lord Ornlu:
1. 15 attack for 20 gems and 18 attack for 25 recruits is not so good for uncommons.
2. I just want to say that Nature is pretty weak in defense. Perhaps only Illusion decks are worse. Well, at least that was true before Corrupted woods was implemented.
3. May I ask you for link to my words about Nature nerf?
4. I played many games with Nature deck, so now I know its strong points and weaknesses. Yes, it's good now, but it's not unbeatable.
5, as PS. The more cards you can summon with Nature keyword, the less chance that you'll get, say, Forest dragon when you need it. So we don't need less rare Natures, we need more.

By the way, now I am playing Nature only because it's an easiest way to get Dragon and Collector awards and achievements. Apart from that, it's strong but pretty boring deck comparing with my favourite Mage/Legend.

NG_Beholder wrote:
Okay. First of all, I'm defending Nature keyword, not cards. My point is: if Nature is really too strong - problem is not in keyword. It is in cards like Lake fairy, Deathwood necromancer and Deathwood Shaman. If you want - I can write a post about all Nature cards and what can be done with them to buff/nerf/change/etc.

To answer that, I'll refer to your previous post, where you defend Nature cards, like Tornado and nowhere in your post do you mention anything about keyword mechanics.

NG_Beholder wrote:
To Lord Ornlu:
1. 15 attack for 20 gems and 18 attack for 25 recruits is not so good for uncommons.
2. I just want to say that Nature is pretty weak in defense. Perhaps only Illusion decks are worse. Well, at least that was true before Corrupted woods was implemented.
3. May I ask you for link to my words about Nature nerf?
4. I played many games with Nature deck, so now I know its strong points and weaknesses. Yes, it's good now, but it's not unbeatable.
5, as PS. The more cards you can summon with Nature keyword, the less chance that you'll get, say, Forest dragon when you need it. So we don't need less rare Natures, we need more.

1. Maybe not, but these uncommons give you the chance to summon rare cards in your deck, and you didn't mention that they also reduce wall, which is a great factor. Ofcourse you'll say this is situational, but none-the-less the situation arises in most cases, so they deal 40 damage for 20 gems and 25 recruits. Also, one of those 2 cards has Far Sight and the other has Undead keywords as well and Necroent also can increase your stock so it's a pretty good uncommon.
2. Nature is pretty weak in defense? Ok, Barbarians are pretty weak in defense, -tower decks are extremely weak in defense, rush decks are also extremely weak in defense, Mages are weak in defense, Legends are weak in defense and so on. Do you expect +wall or +tower nature cards? Darkwood forest gives you +20 wall, so by definition and comparison, Nature cards by themselves have higher defense than any other deck I mentioned here. If you don't like building decks with defensive cards in them to favour attack power, that's your problem to overcome.
3. No, I won't link your posts here, for 2 reasons: a) I am bored of searching for the thread which is more than 6 months old and don't remember its title and b) If you don't remember what you wrote, then again I'm sorry. People who do remember can judge what you say, the ones who don't well, they can call me a liar if they want to.
4. It's not unbeatable? No, ofcourse it's not. No deck is unbeatable, but there is such a thing as overpowered, and Nature decks are overpowered as it is now, because their strong points are way more than their weak points.
5. Agreed, maybe we need more rare Nature cards to increase the pool from which you summon rare Nature cards and reduce the chances of getting a killer nature card like Forest Dragon, but what we have now, is 2 somewhat powerful, but useful rares (Earthquake, Volcano), 3 powerful (Forest Dragon, Corrupted Woods, All-Elemental Attack) and 2 extremely powerful cards (Apocalyptic Rain, Tornado), therefore in 5 out of 7 cases you get cards that cripple your opponent completely and they have almost no chance of retaliating in time to defend themselves and 2 out of 7 cases you get moderate cards, which are still pretty useful. Furthermore, even if you don't kill your opponent with your first rare, you can just summon the next one after playing your previous rare. So what we need is either MORE WEAK rare Nature cards or go back to the previous 4 Nature cards, where 1 was weak (Earthquake), 2 were moderate (Volcano, Ancient Sage) and 1 was powerful (Forest Dragon) or take the existing cards and chop up their strength.

NG_Beholder wrote:
By the way, now I am playing Nature only because it's an easiest way to get Dragon and Collector awards and achievements. Apart from that, it's strong but pretty boring deck comparing with my favourite Mage/Legend.

That's your oppinion ofcourse, and you can do what you want and I'm in no way contesting this. It's not about whether it's a boring deck or not, it's that it ruins the game for your opponent, since they are literally sheep for the slaughter. If you want to get awards, be my guest, gather all the awards you want, gain experience, get a good win:loss ratio, climb up the ranking ladder, but personally, I play for fun, and when I play for fun, I want to play interesting games with lots of different decks. If you keep playing Nature (this is an example only, you can replace Nature with any overpowered deck) and you keep wanting to win by any means necessary in order to get awards, then you force me to either reject your challenges (which is not fun for either of us) or keep picking the same deck against you, which has the best chance of getting a good game against Nature, but in that case I'll get bored eventually and I'll stop playing with you. In which case, it'll be more difficult for you to gain EXP and awards, and therefore no one gets satisfied.

I wouldn't mind playing against a player who lusts for wins and experience, because the game will just be more difficult for me, i.e. more exciting. But I do mind when that person uses overpowered decks in order to win all the time, because he sucks out the fun of the game for me.

(sorry for doubleposting, text was too long to fit in one post)

In my opinion, it should be added 1-2 more crappy rare nature cards just to reduce the chance of getting powerful nature card when keyword triggered.

dimitris wrote:
Maybe triggering Nature keyword could also impose some negative effect (-Tower or -Wall) on yourself? I mean Nature is an uncontrollable kind of force, right? :)

The second "RP" part bring me an idea... what about something like
"Nature - if a Nature card is played after playing a different non-common Nature card, 50% chance to summons a rare Nature card"

How about transforming Nature into a token. When token reaches 100, next card will be a rare Nature.