MArcomage

Should we specify a policy for what kind of actions are intolerable on the website? For some things, like verbal hostility between people, it seems like common sense that we wouldn't allow it and that site moderators should step in. However, without a written policy, it's unclear what kind of activity does and does not merit intervention. Use of unnecessarily vulgar terms (in any language)? Expression of bias? Discussion that promotes illegal activity? Discussion of or links to material that can disgust or unsettle? References to decidedly adult topics?

To decide such things, we should probably start by addressing exactly what age range we consider to be included in the target audience for the site. If this game were to be assigned an age rating, what would it be? All audiences? Teens and older? Adults? Whatever it is, it should be made clear on the site's entry page, and such should be taken into consideration when deciding what kind of discussion is going too far.

We should have clear-cut forum guidelines, and they should be referenced both as a sticky post in General and on the Forum page under Help. Currently, the only stated guideline is that all discussion should be in English.

I'm willing to author a forum guidelines post myself, but I'd like everyone's input before attempting such a thing. Thoughts and opinions?

Whereas most of this would apply to the forums as they are where most player input occurs, it would ultimately reflect upon the rest of the site as well including cards and card concepts. For example, a succubus would probably be an acceptable card concept since it doesn't have to reference what a succubus does in myth and lore, but introducing a card titled "Rapist" would almost certainly upset someone, particularly victims of said crime. Guidelines for card images may be worth discussing as well, like whether or not a card should portray the image of gruesome violence, a phallus, or a female nipple.

My sense (possibly wrong) is that the vast majority of our players are 13+, and that the game wouldn't really appeal to most people younger than that. Personally, I don't have any problem with "mature" content, as long as it's safe for work; so, yes to swearing or ribald language, no to images or language that are pornographic or excessively violent.

That said, while I'm okay with swearing, I'm definitely not okay with abusive or disrespectful language toward other players.

DPsycho wrote:
Guidelines for card images may be worth discussing as well, like whether or not a card should portray the image of gruesome violence, a phallus, or a female nipple.

What has been seen... cannot be unseen. I always thought that was just a puff of smoke.

I'd definitely vote to not include any card images that depict gratuitous violence or gratuitous nudity (I say "gratuitous", because I feel there are maybe some nude images that you could argue are relatively benign - like if a card used Botticelli's Birth of Venus). I'm also not a big fan of images that objectify the female form (i.e. the whole "chain mail bikini" trope), but that's hugely subjective and probably outside the scope of this discussion.

Me too, I don't have problem with swearing when it comes to expressions like wtf or some "bad words" here and there. However, I am not a native english speaker if that counts :)

I have problem when people start fighting and being aggressive to each other and things get out of hand, even if they use a more "delicate" language. Never happened here.

For the rules and laws I leave it to the lawyers and politicians. I was never good at it :)

Also, I agree with dindon that the bottom age limit should be around 12-13 years possibly.


PS. What's wrong with female nipples? :P

Yes, good point DPsycho, we definitely need that. This site is definitely aimed at age groups 13+, so vulgar language should not be used. However, I do not have much experience when it comes to forum guidelines. If you can please prepare a draft of such guidelines. We could also find guidelines that are already created on the internet (aimed at the same age group).

Regarding the card pictures... well I didn't notice, but yeah... I should go through all the card pictures to check. This should also apply to concept pictures and avatars as well.

Mojko wrote:
This site is definitely aimed at age groups 13+, so vulgar language should not be used.

While I agree that profanity is usually in poor taste, I do not understand why it should be wholly disallowed without good reason. The fact that the site is aimed at ages 13+ does not, in my opinion, suffice as good reason.

Of those 13 year old children that use the internet, I believe you would be very hard pressed to find any at all that did not know of the existence of profanity, and many would probably know more profane words than I. So banning profanity in order to prevent children from learning the words makes little sense.

Therefore I can only conclude that banning profanity would not be to prevent children from learning the words, but only from seeing the words. If true, then I must stringently object to banning profanity outright here. In the absence of compelling reason to ban something, it should remain allowed. To do otherwise seems unfair to me.

Though I rarely use profanity myself, I interact with a great number of children on a regular basis who use profanity almost constantly while talking with friends. For them, it is just a part of their lexicon. I'm not saying they use it everywhere, but among friends it has become the way that they normally talk.

Profanity at a job interview or at a funeral is in poor taste, just as much as it would be if you wore a clown outfit at either function. But MArcomage is not a job interview nor a funeral. It is a place for people to get together and play. It seems to me that profanity is best at home in a play-oriented environment such as this one.

Profanity isn't even bad for one to use; a recent Newsweek article reports that it is actually helpful to use profanity in many situations. Many top educational theorists argue that profanity should be disallowed in the classroom, but allowed freely when children play outside.


The bottom line:
Profanity is only bad when it is used inappropriately. If we must ban something, let it be the inappropriate behavior, not the profanity which may or may not go along with it.

"Profanity" and "vulgar language" are not the exact same thing. Saying "f*** yeah!" is a far different act than telling someone "I'm going to f*** you in the face!" Both contain profanity, but only the latter should be considered vulgar language.

I think this is not about preventing younger audience to learn some specific words, but rather how the users feel on this forum. Look at LMTR14's contribution on the forum, I find his behavior repulsive. I have no problem with people having different opinion than me, I'm always open to discussion.

We don't have forum guidelines, because fortunately we didn't have to deal with such problems. I don't know if this can be solved by a set of rules, however I think it's a good start.

I believe as well, that we shouldn't ban vulgar language (except in extreme cases). It's a means of expressing one's self and they are part of our language. Besides this site is comprised of people from all around the world and each one comes from different cultural backgrounds. I don't think our current player's list is like that, but in the future there might come someone who finds offensive what other people find normal. Banning one sort of language right now will open the floodgates to banning other kinds of language later on (for example, people could find offensive the pictures of Acolyte and Apprentice, that depict half-naked women). People could find offensive Boticceli's Venus (since dindon mentioned it). There would be no excuse from the mod team not to ban such pictures or other kinds of mild "vulgarity" that we find acceptable but to other people is not.

Also, this game does not contain content that's not suitable for a 6-year old to join, so setting an age limit on the site could be wrong. Besides, if a kid wants to play the game, they will just join using a false birth date.

In my opinion, what should be banned is aggresive behaviour towards other people in the forum and leave it just there. I don't think anyone was offended by the use of F*** by that guy a couple days ago, but rather by his behaviour. If we ban extreme aggresive behaviour, then there is no need for people to use EXTREME VULGARITY either and it keeps the site accessible to all age limits. Furthermore, this should not be done in a long disclaimer form that everyone will be bored of reading. It should be just stated in a line or 2 above the registration form we currently have.

Age Limit: How are you going to enforce an age limit? This game requires some patience to learn and play, which rules out younger players as a practical matter.
Rude behaviour: I have not experienced any. The jerk who posted inappropriately is an anomaly and the limited ban was the correct response.
Adult images: They wouldn't improve the game. There are plenty of other sites where you can view nude artwork.
In summary: These are not problems, so don't waste effort trying to fix them.

Primarily, I'd just like to have a post about what kind of behavior will not be tolerated so we can refer to it if there are times that things do get out of hand. Censoring words like f*** is not the same as banning them outright, and we just need to agree on a policy so it can be the norm from hereon. Likewise, people using expletives as adjectives in regular discussion is not the same as someone using the same terms in order to insult someone or attempt to discredit them. We just need the guidelines so a moderator can step in without an unruly guest asking "Well, how come HE can say XXXX and now you're getting on MY case for doing it?!" Having the policy in a place where it can be linked will make things easier and, ideally, keep it all as friendly as it is now.

I didn't mean to suggest that we should attempt to limit ages of site visitors. However, appealing to different ages and being deemed acceptable for them would require higher scrutiny for what we can accept in discussion and images. If we're a site primarily for adults, we should merely disallow people abusing or otherwise mistreating others. If the site is teen-friendly, we should be avoiding blatantly ill language, discussion, and imagery. Adding age verification or any other similar step is not the intention of this discussion and would not benefit the site in my opinion.

I should add that I feel that racial, ethnic, and sexual slurs should be avoided in all situations since the only purpose of those words is to spread hatred. As a moderator, I will edit or delete any such offenses with extreme haste.

I agree with what you are saying and believe you have layed out pretty good guidelines in your post. Your judgment as a moderator and the judgment of Mojko and others is solid and reasonable. So I don't think it is necessary to write a manifesto of guidelines. As for teens, why restrict or discourage them when the game needs new players and the game would not be improved by R- or X-rated cards anyway.

I checked our current guidelines and really, there is only Please use English only at all times.

I searched the internet for for more information about forum guidelines and they look extremely long to read. I would prefer something shorter if possible. Here is my first attempt for our new guidelines:

Please be polite, present your arguments without verbal hostility between people (try not to use of unnecessarily vulgar terms) and use English only at all times. Note that this site is intended for players of any age. Before posting please make sure to use the forum search to check if there isn't already a thread about the topic you wish to discuss.

What do you think?

I think the tone and content are right for this site. I would add some version of "The management reserves the right to refuse service to anyone." I'll look at a couple of sites for some language.