MArcomage

Can we consider the addition of the Beast keyword? A giant spider out of everything more than qualifies for the title.

There are several settings where arachnids and insect or hive creatures cannot be controlled by those who have dominance over beasts, so there is justification in leaving it off.

Game-wise, this card already has so much going on with it that adding the Beast keyword (with its effect and yet another means of summoning it) would necessitate nerfing the card.

DPsycho wrote:
There are several settings where arachnids and insect or hive creatures cannot be controlled by those who have dominance over beasts, so there is justification in leaving it off.

By that logic? Not calling them beasts because they resist control is like saying a person can't be Asian if they're lactose tolerant.(I'm not accusing you of persecuting spiders, it's just the only apt comparison I could think of.)

Game-wise, this card already has so much going on with it that adding the Beast keyword (with its effect and yet another means of summoning it) would necessitate nerfing the card.

I do admit to not have considered new possible means of summons. In that light, and how much the card already does, an increase from 7 to 9 would be warranted.

Zaton wrote:
By that logic? Not calling them beasts because they resist control is like saying a person can't be Asian if they're lactose tolerant.(I'm not accusing you of persecuting spiders, it's just the only apt comparison I could think of.)

Would you please reread what you said and try it again in a way that both makes any sense at all and avoids being marginally offensive? I stated a reason why it makes sense lore-wise (control over spiders often falls to shamanistic, dark or necrotic magic rather than nature or ranger skills, making the Horde keyword appropriate), and you come back at me with an obtuse comparison to a person's race? What the hell?

Zaton wrote:
I do admit to not have considered new possible means of summons.

Oh, really?

Zaton wrote:
Another one might help justify a current gen beast deck, honestly. Those rares they have are horrendous in the current scene. Just the chance for Larvae farm to summon a Giant spider by itself is a massive bonus.

Zaton wrote:
I'm embarrassed I said the spider was a Beast; - ;

Then again whoever didn't think a Giant spider qualifies as a Beast should sink into the ground

I've read your discussion on Larvae farm. Summoning this card via the Beast keyword is precisely why you floated the question. No shame in that, but I do have to wonder why you're bothering to lie about it now.

To make my position clear, I feel that Giant spider is currently a well balanced card for what it does, the resources it uses, and its keyword synergy. I feel that changing that by adding the Beast keyword is unnecessary and would cause considerable balance shifts with little reason.

That said, I also understand why it may be appropriate to give it the beast keyword as it is themed for a (somewhat) natural nonhumanoid creature. I just don't see the overall benefit this would give to the game compared to the work of having to consider how it would affect several other existing cards and keywords.

TL,DR: If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Would you please reread what you said and try it again in a way that both makes any sense at all and avoids being marginally offensive? I stated a reason why it makes sense lore-wise (control over spiders often falls to shamanistic, dark or necrotic magic rather than nature or ranger skills, making the Horde keyword appropriate), and you come back at me with an obtuse comparison to a person's race? What the hell?

I am a morbid person, but the comparison still stands!

I tried to be less wordy since that tends to cause trouble between us, but, I meant, while an organisms(which both a theoretical giant spider who may or may not have mental capacities comparable to humans', and a very much extant and also very-qualifying-for-personhood-and-human-rights Asian person are) may not share a common trait with other types of the same organism(in this case, being trained by rangers?), they may still very well be the same type of organism.

Do mind I also consider this segment a reply to your last message. I do make the stand it is, well, not broken, but mistaken in from a lore perspective to not give a giant spider a status as a beast.

I've read your discussion on Larvae farm. Summoning this card via the Beast keyword is precisely why you floated the question. No shame in that, but I do have to wonder why you're bothering to lie about it now.

I mean, I did not consider it in regards to the card's priceo.o Obviously I know you read these messages!o.o Did I really give the impression I am both willing to lie, and also as dumb to fuck it up so badly? Even you couldn't think of a reason for me to lie, so why would you say that? If anything I respect you more than lying to you like this and expecting you not to notice.

Please just assume something nicer, this isn't good for anybody.-. Always assume incompetence over dishonesty(or, as in this case, both). I just phrased it carelessly. Since, again, I am used to writing small essays on these things but I tried to condense it and leave out what you could reasonably fill in. As apparent to me now I made bad choices there and I'm sorry._.

Though, given the current evidence, maybe the length wasn't the issue at all. We'll have to work on our communication a bit.

Zaton wrote:
I am a morbid person, but the comparison still stands!

Your comparison makes no sense whatsoever! I gave examples of settings where arachnids are not categorized as beasts to show that it can be acceptable to leave it unchanged. Under what circumstances does the ability to consume lactose dictate a person's race?!

Being morbid is fine (and not something that was demonstrated at all in this discussion, so I'm not sure why you said that), but marginalizing people is not!

Zaton wrote:
I tried to be less wordy since that tends to cause trouble between us, but, I meant, while an organisms(which both a theoretical giant spider who may or may not have mental capacities comparable to humans', and a very much extant and also very-qualifying-for-personhood-and-human-rights Asian person are) may not share a common trait with other types of the same organism(in this case, being trained by rangers?), they may still very well be the same type of organism.

Your explanation here mixes genetic (being a spider) with conditional (being trained), but your comparison (lactose tolerance and human race) are both genetic traits. Look, in general, DON'T USE RACE TO TRY AND MAKE A POINT. All you're going to accomplish is to upset people, whether you mean to or not.

As I said multiple times above, I am not claiming that a spider cannot be a beast. I gave counter examples because changing the card would create a lot of balancing work for what I perceive to be zero overall benefit to the game.

I mean, I did not consider it in regards to the card's priceo.o Obviously

You're still stuck looking at the card by itself and not the game as a whole. Adding the Beast keyword to Giant spider also changes the balance of the Beast keyword itself and any cards that summon Beast cards. How this change would affect several cards needs to be considered, and adjusting the cost of this one alone doesn't accomplish that. So, no. That it should have been "obvious" that that's what you meant isn't true at all. You came into this specifically because it was brought up that Larvae farm wouldn't summon it, and that actually makes the opposite true, that it should have been assumed you were already considering the meta game.

At this point, I can only assume that you're posting just for the sake of arguing about something. Instead, why not this? I gave my reasons why I believe it's better for the game to leave this card unchanged. I am unable to think of any reasons other than that it seems beastly concept-wise to apply the keyword. How do you feel it benefits the game as a whole to make changes to Giant spider? Outline your reasons, and then this could return to being a discussion with a possibility of agreement.

I would also consider renaming Giant spider to be something else that still makes sense to be Horde and Frenzy and doesn't lend itself to the thinking that it should be a Beast. Perhaps Goblin berserker or something similar. I would rather do this than rebalance an existing card. And that would open up the name and picture of the Giant spider to be something else entirely, Beast keyword or not.